EPISODE 7: Catherine McClenahan
On this episode of Reinvention of the VJ Erica Ehm gets personal with Catherine McClenahan about being the very first female VJ, what the wild early days of Much were like for her, and why she ended up suing MuchMusic and winning.
Listen as Catherine opens up about the challenging relationship she had with the head of MuchMusic, how she’s learned to deals with rejection, and what life lessons she picked up while working at MuchMusic. While her time at Much was short, Catherine will forever be the very first female VJ on the Nation’s Music Station.
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Show Transcript
Group - Podcast...: That's some good rock 'n roll [inaudible] you now. The guys from Kiss have arrived. They snuck in the back door. "You spend your whole life doing the first few albums, and then, suddenly, everybody needs your attention." Erica Ehm. Thanks MuchMusic [inaudible]. The Reinvention of the VJ, a flashback on the career that made them who they are today. On this episode, "It was really, the joy of it was so loosey-goosey and you could do whatever you wanted. And they really hire you for your personality." Don't Worry, Baby from Los Lobos. Before that, Criminal Mind from Gowan and Ultravox is back at the beginning with Love's Greatest Adventure. "All of a sudden, they wanted to hang out with me more. They wanted to so more. So it was just like, 'Oh, interesting.' I jus thought it was so interesting." This is Erica Ehm's Reinvention of the VJ. Now, here's Erica Ehm.
Erica Ehm: Hi, everyone. I'm Erica Ehm and welcome to another fantastic episode of my Reinvention of the VJ podcast. The very first female VJ on MuchMusic. Now, that's something that would make the Canadian pop culture history books, right? So why is there so much misinformation about who the first woman on Much really was? Well, who do you think it was? Okay. It wasn't Jeanne Beker. Nope. Not Denise Donlon. Not Angela Dohrmann. And it was not me.
Today's show, we're chatting with Catherine McClenahan who owns the title of first female VJ on MuchMusic. But before we jump into our interview, it this is your first time tuning in to my podcast, let me give you a little bit of background. Reinvention of the VJ is my unscripted and heartfelt conversations with the quirky and much-loved hosts that you may have grown up with watching on MuchMusic. Look, I was only at Much for, really, the first decade, but so many of the guests on the show, I've never worked with. But there is one thing that we do all have in common. Each of us played a small part in Canada's most influential pop culture platform. And then, we left at different times for different reasons... wanted to, leave push down. It doesn't matter. Each of us eventually headed off on our next adventure. And it's that story of what happens after Much, the reinvention, the resilience, the innovation, the luck, the struggle and the perspective, that intrigues me. Most importantly, I want you to be a part of the show. So, for example, while listening to Catherine today, maybe you'll find some tidbit or some insights into what it takes to get through some tough times and to reinvent and maybe even redefine what success is. That information you can apply to your own life.
And by the way, right after I finish my interview with Catherine, I'll be sharing a reinvention of the VJ phone line that we just set up. We are so important. So you can call us and tell us maybe which VJ I should interview next or you can offer questions to ask future guests. You can feel free to reminisce about an interview or maybe something about Much that really means a lot to you. And, most importantly, you can give us feedback on the show, because this is new for me and I just want it to keep on getting better and better.
So, selfishly, this show is a blast for me. It's allowing me to reconnect with a bunch of people that I haven't seen in years, which brings me to today's guest. In 1984, Catherine McClenahan became the first female VJ on MuchMusic. Thirty-six years later, she joins me from her home in Los Angeles. Hey, Catherine.
Catherine McCle...: Hi. How are you [crosstalk]?
Erica Ehm: How cool is this?
Catherine McCle...: I know. I know. The modern technology that we have so we can do this is wonderful. It's really great to see you-
Erica Ehm: Totally.
Catherine McCle...: ... after so many year.
Erica Ehm: For everybody who is listening, Catherine and I are actually Zooming so we can look in each other's eyes and catch up. The first thing that I wanted to talk to you about was how interesting it is that your name is not automatically synonymous with first female VJ on MuchMusic. Why do you think that is?
Catherine McCle...: I mean, I don't know how many people ask that question, but I think because I was only there for about five months, that that's why and because it was in the early stages. And I think it was 1985, not '84, when I joined. And I think that's why. And because you were there, you started a couple months after I did, and you were there for so much longer, so I think everybody assumes that you were the first female VJ.
Erica Ehm: Well, the crown belongs to you and we're going to hear the story of, first of all, how you ended up being the first female VJ, and then, ultimately, why only five months and what have you been up to since then? You have a really interesting career. So let's start right at the beginning. You are from Ottawa.
Catherine McCle...: Yep.
Erica Ehm: You're an actor. You're a singer, comedian. How did you end up in the big city of Toronto in front of the cameras on Much?
Catherine McCle...: Well, I lived in Toronto after I left Ottawa and I went to University of Ottawa, University of Toronto and that's how I wound-
Erica Ehm: Wait a second. Wait a second. You went to University of Ottawa or Toronto?
Catherine McCle...: Both. I started off at University of Toronto, because I thought I wanted to be a doctor, because I was really good in maths and sciences and physics and I like to sew, so I thought I'd be a surgeon. So I went to the University of Toronto and studied sciences my first year and that was the first year I had never performed. And after a year of studying maths, sciences, physics, I was, "Oh, my god. This is not for me. I'm a performer. I need to..." So then, I went to University of Ottawa and studied theater. I wound up in Toronto years later.
Erica Ehm: Yeah. So you went back to Toronto.
Catherine McCle...: I went back to Toronto and lived there. And how I wound of at Much is a great story. I was going out with... My boyfriend at the time was vice president of CBS Records, and we were at the MTV New Year's Eve party in New York, and it was New Year's Eve 1984 going into '85 and there was a bunch of people at this party that I actually knew. I knew the guys in Duran Duran, because a friend of mine had dated Simon in Toronto. And then, I knew Vitas Gerulaitis, because a friend who's a tennis promoter, we met before in Toronto and there was another... and somebody else was there.
And my boyfriend at the time said, "Catherine, god, you should do this. You should be a VJ." I said, "What's a VJ?" And he goes, "A video jock. I know John Martin. As soon as we get back, I'm going to call him." He goes, "They've been looking for a year for female VJ and you'd be perfect and I just... Oh, my god. You'd be perfect." And I'm like, "Okay." So when we got back, he called John Martin and I got my interview with John, god bless him, and Nancy Oliver and they loved me. And they were like, "Okay. Now you've got to meet Moses." And they gave me this whole, "Now don't take anything personally," and, "If he does this, don't even worry about it, and just don't..." So they had warned me about Moses before I had my interview with him. And so I had my interview with Moses. That was the old Queen Street location, the original one.
Erica Ehm: 99 Queen Street East.
Catherine McCle...: 99 Queen East. That's right. He kept me waiting. He kept me waiting. He came out after about 20 minutes and looked at me and went, "I know you're here," and then goes back in his room. And I'm just laughing, because I'd been... Oh, yeah. He was so rude. And I just laughing, because I had been warned, "Don't take anything personally and don't worry." So then, he came out another 15 minutes later and looks at me and goes, "You're just wearing that because you want a job at a rock station," and then he leaves again. And now, I'm just like, "Oh, my god." And I was tempted to leave, but then I thought, "I would really love to pursue this and see what this is. And so, I'm just going to sit here." So then, he kept me waiting for almost an hour. And then, he said, "Okay. Come in." And I go in and there's nobody in there. He had just been keeping me waiting.
So we had... His first words to me were, "What do I need you? Your Ottowa lawyer father upbringing, your white." He goes, "I want a French-Canadian red-haired Eskimo." I said, "Well, good luck." I said, "You go and find that." I said, "All my friends are in the music business, so I go to music events all the time and I'm funny and I'm writing comedy with my friend, [inaudible] and I'm doing lots of things and I'm acting." Anyway, so we wound up... We talked for, I guess, about half an hour, and then he had to go to the CN Tower because he was doing something at the CN Tower. They just started this, whatever he did back in 1985, at the CN tower. It was a big thing and they were having this big party. And he said, "We can continue our interview. I'm being picked up. Do you want to come with me?" And I said, "Okay." So I thought, "I'll go."
And so, we were taken to the CN Tower and we went up to the party room and he said, "I've got to meet some people and I can't..." I said, "No, that's fine." I said, "You go do your thing. Have fun. So I schmooze for about 20-25 minutes and met some fun people and saw some friends. Then I found him when I thought... After about half an hour, I thought, "Okay. I'm leaving. It's time for me to go." And so, I found him and I said... He was with some people that I had just met, and I said, "I got to get going." And the people that he was talking, they were, "No. You can't go now." And he was, "How do you know these people?" And I said, "Yeah, I got to go." And he said, "Send me some comedy stuff." I said, "I will." So I sent him some comedy stuff that I had written and on the bottom, I wrote, "Hire me." And so, he responded back, "Okay. I will." So that's how I got the job.
But he was very... He was not pleasant. He was not pleasant to me. And he would come in just before I'd go live and say something nasty to me just before I went on the air. It was really interesting. Because I had been warned about this, I guess I didn't really... It was just water off the back. But once I got there, I mean, it was... I had so much fun. I mean, it was just such a free-for-all it really was and gorilla performing.
Erica Ehm: I'm going to go back to Moses for a second. That story is fascinating and I hear stories like that about him often. I've had my own sort of issues that are similar. It's like he is testing your metal.
Catherine McCle...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Erica Ehm: He's to see if you've got the balls to win his approval or something. Did you feel that?
Catherine McCle...: I felt that he... I got the impression that he really wanted me to be, "Oh, Moses. What would you like me to wear? How would you like me to be? How..." And I wasn't having any of that. I am who I am and you hire me for me. He was just... It was misogynistic and it was kind of abusive. It felt like he had it out for me. He actually told me, he goes, "I already have my WASP. I have JD. I don't need you." So he was always... There was that and I mean, I can't change who I am.
Erica Ehm: I am going to disagree with you. When you say that you think he wanted you to be all sort of passive and respond to him and do what he says, I actually disagree. I don't think that he surrounded himself with yes people at all, because when you look at the breadth of characters who worked at Much, most of them were kind of mouthy and were, in many ways, had personalities that were huge. And, on one hand, it irked him because people didn't always listen to him and do what they said, but what he did was he built this hotbed of talent. So he put all these freaky characters together into an enclosed space and put the lights on and said, "Go and make something." And so, how did you use your comedic skills at your job on Much?
Catherine McCle...: Well, since everything is live, it's your personality. You're just talking about what you're talking about. I think my sense of humor is sort of an inherent part of me, so I don't know how I used it. It just would come out.
Erica Ehm: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Catherine McCle...: And as far as that, being with Moses, that was just the impression that I got from him. That was my experience. I didn't know what it was. I didn't know whether he was just being mean to me or abusive or he didn't like me or he knew that I wasn't going to... I don't know, but it was just, that was my experience with him.
Erica Ehm: Yeah, I know. You have a famous quote which is, "Everything was great. Except for Moses, I loved working there."
Catherine McCle...: Yeah. He was the one that made it very hard, because he wasn't nurturing. He wasn't kind. He wasn't generous. He wasn't anything. He was just putting me down every chance he could. So that to me speaks volumes about him. But I just kind of... When I had to deal with him, I tried to be as nice as I possibly could and try not to get upset with whatever he said to me and that worked out well for the few months that I was there.
Erica Ehm: What kind of direction did you get when you started, because, really, they were inventing it. When you started, there was really no roadmap or definition of what a VJ was.
Catherine McCle...: Oh, no.
Erica Ehm: There was MTV, but we were not doing the same thing as them. So what was the direction that you got on your first day?
Catherine McCle...: It really wasn't much. It was just, "You're going to talk. You're going to introduce these videos. You can say whatever you want. We have a filing cabinet," that gray filing cabinet they had over in the corner where they had little articles somebody cut out from a magazine and stuck them in the file, before computers. So it was just, "You're going to be filling in time between the videos and you can do whatever you want." It was really, the joy of it was it was so loosey-goosey and you could do whatever you wanted. And then, they really hire you for your personality, because you're throwing to the audience, throwing about what songs are coming, what bands are happening, what's going on in their world.
Erica Ehm: And it was up to you to make something of those-
Catherine McCle...: Exactly.
Erica Ehm: ... three minutes in between the videos.
Catherine McCle...: Yeah. There was no direction. There was no... We had our own hair, makeup. Everything was on the VJ. We did everything. And it was fun. It was really fun and I loved it. I loved being part of that crazy, creative and joyous. It really was. To work there was so much fun, because you were shooting live in the room where everybody's working, so there's no... It's just there. The chaos is always there and it was fun. The phones ringing in the background and just [crosstalk].
Erica Ehm: For me, when I look back, people say, "What was the best part of working at Much?" Definitely for me, I would say having the opportunity to interview all kinds of amazing artists. For you, what was the best part of your job at Much?
Catherine McCle...: That was a fun one, interviewing people. I remember my first interview. They said, "UB40 is coming in 30 minutes. You're going to interview UB40." I was like, "Uh? Really?" So then, I went to the little file cabinet and I got it out, because I was nervous, like, "Oh, I've never done an interview before." And I went to the file cabinet and got out the UB40 article and I read it. And, I mean, I love them. I love their music. And just got a little bit more and they came and they were so hungover. I mean, hungover. They were gray. And I would ask a question. "Yes." Another question. "No." Another question. "Yeah." They were giving one-word answers and I'm like, "Oh, my god." So then, I just went in, "Okay. So where were you last night? What were you doing? Let's talk about that." And that's when they started talking was when we... "Let's talk about the amount of alcohol you had last night."
Erica Ehm: So in the five months that you worked there, you must have picked up a lot of skills for interviewing.
Catherine McCle...: Sure, interviewing. Also, when we do the news. I did the news. We had our MuchNews every so often. Yeah. So interviewing. Yeah. And it's just seat of the pants. You're just learning as you do it live coast-to-coast, which was really fun. My next interview was George Thorogood who was a much better interview. He would talk. And it's funny. I ran into him a few months ago. It's really funny to see him. I said, "I interviewed you a thousand years ago." We got a big kick out of that. But, yeah-
Erica Ehm: What was the context for you seeing him after all these years?
Catherine McCle...: We were at a restaurant, a jazz place, in Bel Air, and he was at the same concert that I was at. And the owner of the place, my friend knew the owner, we were chatting. She goes, "Oh, come and meet George Thorogood." And I said, "Oh, my god. I've already met him. I'll come say hi to him." So it was really funny to-
Erica Ehm: Did he remember?
Catherine McCle...: Not really. I don't think he remembers... No, he didn't remember specifically that.
Erica Ehm: Okay. I'm going to test your memory.
Catherine McCle...: Oh, god.
Erica Ehm: There is sort of an iconic image that keeps up popping up in my Facebook stream. I know you've seen it. It's the cover of Graffiti magazine taken in 1985. And you and I are both in that photograph and there's a few other people from different music television shows. I know JD was in there. I think Joel Goldberg was in that.
Catherine McCle...: Yep. John Majhor.
Erica Ehm: John Majhor.
Catherine McCle...: Shirley McQueen.
Erica Ehm: Shirley.
Catherine McCle...: Yeah.
Erica Ehm: Do you remember that shoot and that time?
Catherine McCle...: I do. I'm going to say one of the things I remembered most because I wore the ugliest outfit in that one shot they had of me. But I do remember that time. It was down at Harbourfront, I think, and it was really fun having everybody there. Samantha Taylor was also there. And it was just really fun having all of us just being silly and at this... They picked out clothes for us to wear for this photo shoot for the Graffiti magazine. And, yeah, I remember that day.
Erica Ehm: I was so uncomfortable. And I look at that photo and it reminds me of my discomfort being on air, because I must have just started. Because if you are only on for five months, I must have been on camera for two months or something.
Catherine McCle...: Yeah. Yeah.
Erica Ehm: And I did not feel like I should have been in the photo or something-
Catherine McCle...: Really?
Erica Ehm: Because can see that I'm kind of standing off. There's a space between me, and I can't remember who I was standing beside, and it's not because I didn't like people. I was so uncomfortably shy. I am such an introvert. What about you? You're the opposite, right? You're like, "Let me get up there and perform," and "Let me talk to you."
Catherine McCle...: Not, not, not always. I actually had somebody... I had a psychic intuitive the other day, he goes, "Oh. You're an introvert trapped in an extroverts body." And I went, "Oh, that's an interesting way of putting it." When I am up and performing and doing it, I'm fine. Before that, I get really anxious. I'll get nervous. I'll get, you know. But it's not like I have this raging desire to be on stage, which is why I don't have a huge career, because I've always had that kind of there's part of me that is an introvert as well.
Erica Ehm: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Catherine McCle...: So it's a very interesting dichotomy, shall we say, to have that.
Erica Ehm: Yes.
Catherine McCle...: And I didn't know that you had that and that's interesting.
Erica Ehm: I'm a bookworm. I really am such an introvert. But for me, being on Much was really cathartic, because it forced me to come out of my shell and talk to people even when I felt like I was collapsing inside. And it gave me sort of new muscles and new skills.
Catherine McCle...: Yes. For sure. For sure. And you were on for how many years? I mean, you were there for-
Erica Ehm: I was on for a decade.
Catherine McCle...: Yeah.
Erica Ehm: Right.
Catherine McCle...: Yeah.
Erica Ehm: And I did it because, my god, I was so passionate about music. That's why I was there.
Catherine McCle...: Yes. And that was the joy of the show. I mean, that was the joy of what we were doing was that we all loved music and it was so new to have this format to show videos and share that with everyone. It was so much fun.
Erica Ehm: Even though you were only there for five months or so, did you create friendships with anyone that you still have today?
Catherine McCle...: Yeah. I mean, I still have a lot of friendships from Toronto for sure that [inaudible] there. I saw Mike Williams not too long ago. I saw him a couple years ago when I was visiting up in Canada. JD and I chat on Twitter every so often. And, yeah, I mean, I still have a ton of friends in Toronto and-
Erica Ehm: It's interesting that-
Catherine McCle...: [crosstalk].
Erica Ehm: ... you still speak to JD and Mike Williams and stuff and you and I are talking here, because I do think that there was something that we all experienced that is almost hard to articulate when people say, "What was it like working at Much?" And being on the inside of something that people connect with their youth right now, that it was a moment in Canadian history or pop culture history, that brought us all together, and I think a lot of... Do you get people talking to you about their memories and what Much means to them?
Catherine McCle...: I don't that often. I meant to say that Christopher Ward and I are very good friends and I see him more than I see anybody else from that time. God, I love him so much. It's been so great. And I know that he gets those kinds of questions. He'll get approached for that. I loved when he wrote his book, Is this Live? and we had that party a couple years ago. That was a lot of fun. And I had people come up to me then and tell me that, "Oh, my god. I used to watch you and..." That was nice to hear, it was so long ago and you don't think anyone remembers, but people do and they do want to know you know, "What was it? What was it like being there?"
Erica Ehm: So tell us, what was it like to leave? Because I understand that you left and it was not good.
Catherine McCle...: Oh, I was so upset.
Erica Ehm: Tell me what... I'm dying to know. Give me the [inaudible].
Catherine McCle...: Well, I got a part in a play. I got a musical called Yuppies the Musical and I sort of created the role of Carrie. When I got cast, I spoke to John and Nancy to make sure that it was okay. I said, "They're going to work around my schedule for rehearsals and when we're up and running." It's at night, so it doesn't matter, because we shot Much in the daytime. And Nancy and John gave me the okay. They were like, "That's fine. That's fine. As long as it doesn't screw up your on-air schedule." I said, "No, it won't. They said they've said they'll work around it."
Erica Ehm: I'm just going to interrupt. So John and Nancy... John Martin and Nancy Oliver ran MuchMusic.
Catherine McCle...: They were the producers. They were my producers.
Erica Ehm: The producers. Right.
Catherine McCle...: Yeah.
Erica Ehm: Okay.
Catherine McCle...: So I got the okay from them. Got the job. And as soon as Moses found out that I was hired, he fired me. So he fired me for getting this musical. And so, I sued him for wrongful dismissal and I won. Unfortunately, I hadn't been there for that long, so I didn't didn't get a lot of money from it. It was just more the win-
Erica Ehm: On principle.
Catherine McCle...: The principle. Absolutely.
Erica Ehm: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Catherine McCle...: Because he fired me for no reason. But he didn't want me from the beginning, so that's the thing with Moses. And he sent out this very nasty email, that some lovely person sent me from Much, about how this proves I wasn't a music person. I was an actress and it showed. He just had all these awful things that he said about me in this little email.
Erica Ehm: How did you find out that he had fired you? What happened?
Catherine McCle...: You know what? That's a good question. I think it must have been John or Nancy that told me. And I was devastated. I mean, I was so hurt, because I had loved it. And I was getting a ton of fan mail. I was getting as much as JD. He used to get the most, but I was getting as much as he was. And people... It just, it's Moses' thing and he didn't want me there and so that was it. And then, after I sued him and won, he declared that no VJ could have a contract or a lawyer.
Erica Ehm: That's illegal. Right Yeah, that's going to work well.
Catherine McCle...: Anyway, it was... I mean, I had the most wonderful time there and it was very sad how it ended, but it got me... And that was probably one of the reasons that I wound up leaving Canada after a while. I moved to New York and that's where I met my now wasband. But my future and now ex-husband I met in New York.
Erica Ehm: So when you moved to New York, I'm assuming you went there to audition and to find other opportunities.
Catherine McCle...: Yes. Yes. I always loved New York and I lived there earlier for a few months, a few years earlier, and I just really... I don't know. New York was exciting and fun. And so I did. I was studying theater and doing a couple of theater things. But I was Canadian, so I wasn't really allowed to work. I didn't have a work permit at the time. But I would audition for things and, if you got a job, you'd get a work permit, hopefully. But I was there for, I guess, a couple of years.
Actually, after about a year, I heard... God, I'm drawing, but... Warren, Warren Cosford, who used to manage CHUM radio, he had always wanted me to do radio when I was in Toronto and I always said, "No, no, no, no, no." And then, when I was in New York, I heard that he was managing this radio station in New York in Long Island and they were looking for a morning radio team, host and hostess.
Erica Ehm: Wow, that's cool. What are the chances of that?
Catherine McCle...: I know. So I phoned him. This is great. I called him up and I said, "Hey." I said, "I hear you're looking for a morning person." He goes, "Yeah. You want the job." And I said, "Yeah." And that's how I got the job. And it took them three months. They got me a work permit. And so, I worked with a guy named Danny Toy. We were Danny in the Cat. And it was WDRE 98.7. It was new music station. And I worked there for... I was the morning person for, again, it's like five or six months. After three months, I was going to get a contract. And then, they didn't really give me a contract after three months. And then, Bill, my boyfriend, got a job out in Los Angeles and he wanted me to come and I was like, "Okay. Let's do that." So we moved to LA and wound up getting married and we have our two perfect children. There's more.
Erica Ehm: What do your girls think about you having been on Much? Do they know and have they seen video of you doing it? They're teenagers now, right?
Catherine McCle...: Oh, god. They're 26 and 28.
Erica Ehm: Oh, god. [crosstalk]
Catherine McCle...: I know. It goes so fast. It goes [crosstalk].
Erica Ehm: Wow.
Catherine McCle...: I think they think it's interesting. Because they didn't grow up with it or watch it... They've seen a couple of things that I did on Much that they think are hilarious and wonderful.
Erica Ehm: Like what? What did they see?
Catherine McCle...: They saw something that I think it's on YouTube. There's me doing something on... I'm doing just a throw, just "Hey," talking about some contest we're having and they just got a big kick out of that. And my hair is like... My hair was out to here. My nickname was Fluffy, because of my hair, because it was always a foot off my head. God bless the '80s. But they think... I think they find it slightly amusing. They don't think it's any big deal and I'm sure that they would, unless you told them, "Your mom was a VJ," "Oh, yeah," they would forget.
Erica Ehm: The line of business that you've chosen, which is to be a performer, an actor, is a really hard life, because you are constantly putting yourself out there. You do auditions and most people 1 out of every 30 that they auditioned for. It's shitty.
Catherine McCle...: Yeah.
Erica Ehm: How do you deal with the constant rejection?
Catherine McCle...: Great question. You just deal with it. For me, I make sure that my life is happy in every other way so that it doesn't matter whether I get the job or not. My life is going to be great no matter if I get this job or not. And it's just one of those things that you know that there's hundreds of people probably vying for this one job and they're looking for a very certain type and that type might not be you. I think it's really important to create your own work. A friend of mine and I and I created our show, Two Blondes Don't Make a Right, which we have several episodes up on YouTube. We did that for a few years. That was really fun and very creative. And it didn't really go anywhere, and that's fine. We still have it out and it's just something that you are creating and you're having fun and you're... It feeds that part of your soul that needs to perform and needs to be creative.
Erica Ehm: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Is there something that Much taught you that has become part of who you are?
Catherine McCle...: Sure. One of the big lessons I got was dealing with somebody like Moses, just how to navigate that misogyny and abusive tone with a male boss. And also, I learned that you have to be really careful even though you're in the right. Like I was fired for doing a musical and I sued them and I won, bu if I say anything negative, it's not going to make me look good. You have to be really careful about how you say this. I mean, even now, I'm talking about it and it might not make me look good that I had that experience. But I did have that experience and I did learn from it. I also learned that you can talk to anybody about anything and celebrities are just people, too. They get up in the morning like we all get up in the morning.
Erica Ehm: Yeah. That's an interesting thing. I do think that that having the opportunities that we have had, which are interviewing people who are put up on a pedestal, I think that there is something to seeing the world differently, understanding that celebrities are Just regular people. I think that's a really great gift.
Catherine McCle...: It was. Another thing that ties in with this is that... and I'm sure you've had this, too... when people come up to you and they go, "Oh, my god! Are you Catherine McClenahan?" And they're so excited. And I remember one girl, she was so... I can't remember where I was, some concert or something. She was just going off. She's like, "Can I touch you?" And I said, "Yeah. Knock yourself out. Don't know why'd you want to, but..." And it was interesting to see that sort of adulation from people that, just because you're on TV, you are sort of elevated somehow, which obviously is not true in real life. I mean, yeah, you are, you're being seen by a bunch of people. But that was a very interesting thing, just to have people be so enamored or excited to see you, because you're famous or known.
And it was also interesting to see people that I've been friends with for a long time, and then when I got the Much gig, they treated me very differently. All of a sudden, they wanted to hang out with me more or they wanted to do more... So it was just like, "Oh, interesting." I just thought was so interesting. So people see you differently, react to you differently. And I think that is certainly something that has been very interesting to know and to have as just see what human behavior is like. And you see it, so you know these people that you're interviewing, they get that a thousand fold.
Erica Ehm: It's interesting that you've used the word misogyny a few times. And back in the day, there wasn't a lot of talk about women empowerment, et cetera, et cetera. So what you and I were doing, the same job as men, I got paid less for, et cetera. But I was wondering, did you feel like that you played a different role than the men played at MuchMusic? Were you expected to be sexy and silly or were the requirements for the role the same as what the guys were doing at Much? I'm curious.
Catherine McCle...: I would say maybe the same. I certainly wasn't given any direction. If you look at what I wore, I certainly wasn't going for the sexy look. I was just comfy and bright colors. So no, I was not given any of that kind of direction. Thank, god.
Erica Ehm: [crosstalk].
Catherine McCle...: That was one of the joys that Moses did do, just like, "Here. It's you. Go do it."
Erica Ehm: Be you.
Catherine McCle...: Just be you. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Erica Ehm: I found it really interesting, in preparation for our conversation, since we hadn't spoken in 36 years, I thought it would be good to sort of catch up on what Catherine is up to, and I saw a video that you shot inviting Americans who live in Canada to vote, which I thought that was fantastic. What I thought what was really interesting is you introduce yourself as, "Hi. I'm Catherine McClenahan. You may remember me from MuchMusic." And then, you went on and invited people to vote. And so, it made me wonder, how connected do you feel to MuchMusic even now?"
Catherine McCle...: I don't feel very connected to Much, because it has been so long ago. It was what, 30,35 years ago. And it's just something that's there. It's a part of me that I experienced and I'm so grateful for it and I'm really grateful for the friendships that I made and the lessons I learned and all the skills I acquired, but because Much doesn't really exist right now, does it? I don't think it's... Does it?
Erica Ehm: I don't know.
Catherine McCle...: I don't think-
Erica Ehm: If it does, not in any meaningful way.
Catherine McCle...: Right. And I remember when I went for Christopher's book signing a couple years ago and I was surprised that there was still some kind of on-air thing for MuchMusic. But it hasn't really been anything that we know about. Obviously, if you and I don't know about it, it's probably not happening. I don't know.
Erica Ehm: Well, my kids would never watched it. So, in other words, it isn't resonating with the younger generation, because my kids are kind of hip and they're into pop culture. But I think that YouTube and Snapchat and TikTok has replaced any of relevancy that Much may have had.
Catherine McCle...: Right. And also, if they didn't continue being viable all the way along, it's not going to. It was kind of a big... Hey, a decade... It's amazing that it went that long. And it went even further, because they're all these VJs that are after you, right?
Erica Ehm: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Catherine McCle...: And I felt, too, when I left, I was never invited to any of the reunions stuff. I was never... And I was just like, "That sucks." Even if you fired me, life goes on. It's not like I'm pining my life away for it, but you should me back for a reunion which is how many, 20 years later or something? I don't know. And they were like, "Oh, we couldn't find you." It's like, "Bullshit. We're still friends. You know where I am."
Erica Ehm: Oh, Christopher did it for all of us by bringing us together. It was October 2016, for the launch of his book, Is This Live? And it was a pretty remarkable night where-
Catherine McCle...: That was fun.
Erica Ehm: ... we all sort of reconvened as grown-ups and saw each other. I think some of us saw each other in different lights. What was that experience like for you?
Catherine McCle...: I loved it. It was really great. It was really great to see people that I had not seen in so long, you included. And it was just so nice to see everybody, because I did have such a wonderful time when I worked there. It holds a very special place in my heart, and so it was nice to go back and support Christopher and to see everybody and to have people remember me, because I didn't think that that would happen. I didn't think there'd be anybody there that would give a crap that I was there, but-
Erica Ehm: And? What was it like?
Catherine McCle...: ... they were. It was nice. It was really, really nice and people remembered. They were like, "I remember you." I'm like, "You did," because it was such a quick few months. Yeah, I was grateful for that. I'm really glad I flew up for that.
Erica Ehm: Before I let you go, I know that you're working on another solo show.
Catherine McCle...: Yes.
Erica Ehm: I want to hear a little bit about it.
Catherine McCle...: My solo show that I'm working on is called The Not So Young and the Breastless, and it's about my journey through breast cancer, divorce and spiritual enlightenment. And I wrote it a few years ago, but I was still very much traumatized by all the stuff I was going through and now I'm finally at a place where I'm like, "Okay. I can do this now." So I'm in the process of rewriting it and getting all the multimedia stuff together and I hope by next year that I can perform it. And, yeah, it's going to be good. And it's-
Erica Ehm: [crosstalk].
Catherine McCle...: ... kind of like a musical TED talk.
Erica Ehm: Oh, that's so cool. Well, thank you so much for spending this time with me and for reconnecting and for reminding everybody that you are the rightful owner of the MuchMusic crown for first female VJ. So if you see it in a crossword puzzle or a trivia question,-
Catherine McCle...: That's right.
Erica Ehm: ... it's Catherine McClenahan is the right answer. And I also like the idea that you are constantly creating your own work, which is important because sometimes what we love to do doesn't necessarily end up being something we are paid for. Sometimes we have to work and earn money doing things that we don't always love, because we have to pay the bills. But there's nothing stopping you, Catherine, me or anybody listening from building something of their own because it's passion.
Catherine McCle...: Exactly. I was just going to say, whatever you're passionate about, that's what you're supposed to be doing, and that's a joy. And thank you for bringing that up. I really... Thinking back on it, I was 26 years old and I'm very proud of myself that I sued Moses and won, because he was wrong in firing me. And I could have just slunked down and gone, "Oh, that's too bad," but it was the principle of the thing. I thought, "You can't get away with that. You can't, first of all, treat me like shit for all these months and then fire me and not get away with it."
Erica Ehm: We're not going to take it, as Twister Sister said.
Catherine McCle...: We're not gonna take it.
Erica Ehm: It was a community of music lovers who were creative, passionate and just wanted to make good shit happen. And our paths crossed for a short period of time and I'm so glad that they passed, that our worlds have collided yet again.
Catherine McCle...: I know. Me, too. It's so nice to see you. And I'm so proud of everything that you've done and what you've done with your life and your family and your kids. I mean, it's just, it's an inspiration.
Erica Ehm: Thank you, Catherine. Oh, please. Don't stop. Listen.
Catherine McCle...: Don't stop.
Erica Ehm: I'm going to wrap things up and remind everybody who is watching right now that, hopefully, you enjoyed this show, that something that Catherine and I said resonated with you. Remember, my awesome listener who stayed for the whole conversation, you are really the reason why I do the show. And so, remember I've set up a phone line for you to call to have your voice included in Reinvention of the VJ. The number is... Do you have a pen or something or your phone or something to type it in? 833-972-7272. And if you missed it, I'll give you that number again. This reminds me of, remember we did our RSVP show and we would always give the number? 833-972-7272. So call in, share your stories, suggestions, who I should interview next. Maybe you met one of the on-air people in real life and you'd like to dish about that or maybe you remember a specific Much segment that you want to talk about or you might have a burning question that you'd like me to ask any of our future guests. And you can also share feedback about this episode or any other episode.
And listen, if you're uncomfortable doing a phone in and you are not the phone type of person, you can always reach me on social media. Man, I live on social media, If you want to find me, I'm on Instagram. I'm on Twitter. I'm on Facebook. Just type in Erica Ehm and you'll find me. I'm also on LinkedIn.
So that wraps up another edition or episode of Reinvention of the VJ. Here's to living a life filled with music, meaning and many reinventions.
Group - Podcast...: Thanks for listening. Follow Erica Ehm's Reinvention of the VJ podcast. Subscribe and follow more episodes. Click to reinventionofthevj.com. Podcast produced in collaboration with Steve Anthony Productions. Editing and coordination [inaudible] Communications, Inc. Copyright 2020.